This is a genuine question, as every time I have an argument about this with someone they bring a point so utterly stupid that it leaves me stumped…
It’s a waste of time. These types of people are as thick as mince, you’re not gonna change their mind because they have zero interest or incentive to do so. It’s a fucking cult of morons.
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You are not wrong, but you stop short. These types are also very weak emotionally. As Adam Kinzinger said, MAGAs are too terrified to leave the tribe. They believe the lies because their tribe tells them to.
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This is the sentence that I needed to read today. Thank you
You don’t. See the first (introduction) video from the Alt-Right Playbook. Basically, there is a real risk that even if you “win” the argument, the red-pill derp just gets angry and takes it out on a convenient female target. The energy is better spent finding ways to counter red-pill ideology that don’t involve engaging directly with these people.
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My mother threw out a statistic about police killings that she got from Fox that I was able to counter in five seconds with a Google search and a WaPo article. She said she still believed Fox. Our relationship had already been strained due to politics (summer 2020) and I nearly cut the relationship off because I was so appalled by her politics. The solution was to stop discussing those topics. It’s not as straight forward bad to reject discussion as you are suggesting.
Look into ‘Street Epistemology’: https://streetepistemology.com/
It’s not an easy thing to employ in the moment. A lot of ‘red pill’ types actually try to employ this method, unfortunately for them they do it very clumsily and are often visibly just JAQing off (“Just asking questions, bro”). But, when this technique is used to genuinely understand and break down someone’s position (instead of a cult conversion / ‘argument winner’ tool), it’s quite effective.
One of the Wachowskis mocking it.That’s great but not going to convince anyone who’s already in too deep.
But it’s the right amount of energy to spend on someone who’s in too deep. Zero.
Life is too short to argue with idiots. Ignore them let them wallow in their stupidity.
you just described all the conversations i had with my ex. blah blah blah “you know i think desantis has some good points”
“NO HE DOES NOT DONT SAY THAT” cue argument about what hes actually doing and that one policy that only kind of makes sense doesnt make desantis anything anyone should be listening to
no its about the kids not trans erasure. MAYBE FOR YOU ITS ABOUT KIDS OR SMTH but for the majority of the conservatives its about trans erasure WHICH IS NOT A GOOD THING.
don’t even get me started on fucking covid vaccines. “this study says… myocarditis, autism, mrna blah blah” “which study” “they exist theres data” “ok i believe you show me these studies” “well i cant find the studies now i feel stupid gets upset but doesnt think shes wrong still”
once she brought me a “study” and the results said “THE DATA IS INCONCLUSIVE AND FURTHERS PROVES THE BENEFITS OUTWEIGHT THE NEGATIVES” and im like i dont know what to tell you this wasnt the study you think it is.
i don’t get how people can just be wrong and proven wrong over and over but still think theyre right. her parents shove right wing propaganda down her throat sadly.
I think it’s as simple as:
Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired -Jonathan Swift
Just A Friend - Biz Markie
…
The way that I met her was on tour at a concert
She had long hair and a short miniskirt
I just got onstage drippin’, pourin’ with sweat
I was walkin’ through the crowd and gues who I met
I whispered in her ear, “Come to the picture booth
So I can ask you some questions to see if you are a hundred proof”
I asked her her name, she said blah-blah-blah
I took a couple of flicks and she was enthused
I said, “How do you like the show?”
She said, “I was very amused”
…
You don’t. That person is lost.
I’m starting to think that the correct way to address these types of things is with a simple, possibly even loving, “that’s the dumbest thing I’ve heard”.
A lot of poorly reasoned opinions and ideas come from socially validated sources, they parrot the opinions of people they identify with. Showing that you won’t agree to get along, might work as a counter both to their spewing the shit as well as maybe letting them question why they hold that belief.
Might also make them stop coming to you with these types of opinions, which may or may not be what you want.
Works quite well in person unless the person is literally beyond logic and saving
It’s really hard for people to completely deny close friends with hard evidence in person (usually saying your line results in them asking why and then you can search stuff up on your phone or something), much easier with the distance of social media
Ask them if they think their mom is also that way. If they say yes, then you know you can’t change their mind, and drop the subject.
Ask them to define concepts instead of using catchwords
You can’t reason someone out of a position that they didn’t reason themselves into.
Fascists and other Frauds tell the Little Man that he is a loser; that he is being ripped off by the Bad People; that his whole class or gender or race are being taken advantage of by their inferiors. They play to the Little Man’s anxieties, making him feel littler and more stepped-upon.
This is all a lead-in to telling the Little Man to sign up for the Big Lie.
IMHO, it’s not only stupid but completely unnecessary as well.
There’s a quote variously attributed to a bunch of people that’s along the lines of “you can’t reason someone out of a corner they didn’t reason themselves into” — not to say your friends didn’t necessarily come by a faulty logic to get themselves there; rather that there’s some innate values that were interpellated by the rhetoric of the so-called redpill, and you’re unfortunately seeing an aspect of them that was always there but perhaps in different forms. It’s not worth your time to argue with them, and sadly, may not be worth your time to be in that environment either.
Ask them what they hope to win. You can sit there and make endless arguments to defend your view that half of humanity is awful. Until eventually everyone just gives up arguing. Now what? There is a next day. The victim mentality is not even self-serving. At most it lets you know how badly your life went, but far more often it skews your view of the events and gives you nothing to work with moving forward except a desire to hurt others.
Tell them they won and ask them what they want to do next.
