Sponsor: Arctic Liquid Freezer II ARGB on Amazon https://geni.us/8BokJIn HW News this week, we start with a discussion about Linus Sebastian's recent reply t...
But why does it even matter if they do it correctly or not? It’s still a water block that costs over $800. It’s a bad product at a fundamental level because not only is it a niche of a niche it’s wildly overpriced. No amount of testing is going to make it a good product. It was never going to sell well. I do not understand why people care so much about it.
The quanity-over-quality and QA errors are way more egregious than them shitting a product that deserves to get shit on. And as far as I can tell the auction thing is a single, isolated mistake of that nature. They do have a track record of making errors in their reviews. But what they don’t have is a history of auctioning off prototypes. It is a really weird thing to be so up-in-arms about. It was an accident and they are paying for it. What is the big deal?
Mate, it’s a prototype, their first product. If that design works well and will be mass produced the price goes down. With possibly a budget option released later that actually makes sense to buy.
A lot of companies started with the luxury version of a product and then later offered budget versions after showing everyone they could deliver.
Linus not only dissed them (after “testing” the product on the wrong GPU) but also sold off their only prototype. Otherwise they could have sent it to another reviewer to do a proper test.
You wanna talk about poorly run businesses? Why are they sending out their prototype if they only have one and it’s so important? At least make two of them.
They didn’t only have one Prototype but this was their best and most recent one, you also generally don’t copy prototypes until you are 99% to completion. Additionally they trusted LTT to send the Prototype back in a timely manner once they were done testing, as you would expect from any company with even a speck of professionalism.
I’d guess in the time the Prototype was away they either worked on other things (Packaging/Manufacturing/Marketing Solutions for the final release?) or went on a planned short Vacation.
Buddy are you trolling just for the sake of trolling or is that an genuine POV of yours.
If you are genuine then hear me out.
When a small company makes a prototype it is 1st to test, iterate and perfect. The 2nd job of a near perfect prototype is to promote the company to investors and hopefully garner money for the next step ie perfecting the process to make a finished product.
A small company notwithstanding even a big company like Nokia makes a single prototype to begin with and then replicate it to perfect the production process.
The second job is especially important for a startup who put all their money to make a prototype. The reason they gave it to LTT was for promotion. LTT dissed the company that the product is not viable but didn’t highlight that the concept of perfected and made cheaper can become a viable option for water cooling. On top of that they sold it without permission, under the guise of charity, which I doubt even happened.
I would love to see them pull something like this with any of the big companies. That is an sure shot way to corporate suicide.
If they can’t think of pulling something like this with a big company they should have thought twice before doing it with a small company.
When your defense of LMG boils down to “anyone would be stupid to trust them with something important”…
And yes, it was stupid to trust them and I hope no one else does going forward. But it doesn’t change that LMG were the ones to screw up and did so in so many ways it’s comical. Either they don’t know what they are doing, don’t care, or some combination of the two.
It’s not a water block that costs $800 though. It’s a prototype water block that they estimated the cost of producing to be around $800 given R&D, labor, materials, etc.
It was never meant to be a production ready product, and it should never have been treated as such.
The issue with the auction is due to the fact that they sent Billet numerous emails claiming to have prepared it to be shipped back, including one in which they said they would send tracking info shortly. They didn’t know it was being auctioned off until afterward. And Linus didn’t contact them about compensation until 3 hours after GNs video went live.
These are facts, backed by actual evidence which you can see for yourself in GNs latest HW news.
The product costs over $800. I’m not talking about the prototype. And sure “they” sent Billet multiple emails. That means one person sent the emails and then failed to follow up on them. The 100+ people at the company are not responsible for what happened, the 2-3 people that should have dealt with it are.
And Linus didn’t contact them about compensation until 3 hours after GNs video went live.
Okay? But he is compensating them. That is all I said.
Sure, but people are acting like Linus himself is somehow directly responsible for it, some people even acting like it’s intentionally malicious, when it’s more just lack of oversight.
Billet estimated the cost of the prototype to be $800. They never sent them a product.
Linus said “they agreed on compensation” and yet billet has stated they never responded to his offer, that he sent literal hours after GN posted the main video. Linus lied here. He can say he is compensating them all he wants, but there has not been any agreement made between the parties involved. They didn’t want payment, they wanted their fucking prototype back.
And he did not lie, he said agreed to compensate them which he did do. That doesn’t require an agreement between parties, he decided he would do it which is objectively true.
They didn’t want payment, they wanted their fucking prototype back.
They can make another one with the money. It’s not like they took the CAD files. It’s a manufactured piece of copper. It can be rebuilt.
I haven’t exactly watched Linus’ videos about it but here’s how I understand the situation:
They deemed the product a “nobody should ever buy this for any reason” because of two things:
1: The cooler was for a 3090TI, by all accounts an “old” card
2: The cooler is priced at 800$
Of these 2 factors both have issues. For starters the “product” they tested was only a prototype, there is a 4090 Version coming that would be more appealing to the market. Second and most important: the cooler is apparently aimed at an incredibly niche market. A market so niche in fact 800$ for a cooler isn’t considered expensive. Just as an example: the product stack they themselves compare against is about as expensive as their own cooler block. They are not as egregiously overpriced as LTT claims. In fact given their selling point of “Only one cooler block” I’d argue they actually have a competitive product here. Can’t be sure though as I’m not well versed in the custom loop market.
Now under these circumstances giving such an absolute statement of “nobody should ever buy this” suddenly seems a tad bit unfair. No this cooler isn’t for the masses but by refusing to retest and not considering the market this cooler is aimed at LTT has done a disservice to the people potentially interested in this who will now be subconsciously steered away from it.
What Linus did is essentially review a Super Car. But instead of Gasoline he filled the tank with Diesel (not exactly the best analogy but the closest I can think of), then took it out for a drive. Claimed the Performance was shit for the price and that nobody ever should buy this for any reason at all. For a product like this it doesn’t matter that average Joe shouldn’t buy it, that is obvious from the get go but by not doing this properly LTT essentially robbed the intended customer base of an objective take on it.
Honestly, the prototype as it stands is a product no one should buy. But it is also a product only 1 person could buy (and that was a mistake…). It is a very expensive for what it is and anyone that has that kind of money to spend on a cooler is going to want the latest graphics card, not the last years model. So as a product for the 3090TI it really does not have any real market.
But it is only a prototype. And if they made one for the 4090TI instead it would have a niche market again. Development of these things takes time and they are only a very small company - no telling what they will bring to market in the future but I think it would take less time to adapt what they learnt from this prototype to one for the newer cards wont take as long. Maybe they might even need to target the next gen as their first actual market.
Either way, the conclusions that LTT made from their botched testing are useless. No performance improvement at all when used incorrectly does not tell us anything. If they had tested it correctly, and found a slight improvement in performance then it means they are on to something for the niche market they are going after. Which I assume is people with lots of money that want to squeeze the most performance as they can out of their system. Even if this version is not worth it for anyone that can afford it as you can get better performance with the newer card, what they actually release might be if it targets the current gen cards at the time of release.
But they still have to start somewhere with hardware they can get their hands on to actually do some R&D on their product ideas so a prototype being made for the 3090TI does make sense even if the product targeting that now does not.
Either way no good conclusion can be drawn from LTTs review but that also wont stop their review from hurting the company potential future customers. So is really a shitty thing for them to have done all round.
A review isn’t a conclusion. It’s an overview of a product. A slapstick video where you throw together a system to review something and fail to even use the right graphics card when you HAVE IT ON HAND is just assinine in terms of being lazy and not doing your job right
But the video is not supposed to be a review. Literally the whole point is for it to be asinine entertainment. Their job for that video was to entertain not to do a review.
What harm was done exactly? If anything this is one of the greatest things that could have possibly happened to their company. They’re getting more positive publicity than a good review would have given them from this controversy.
And I am autistic, so congrats for figuring that out I guess. I have a hard time relating to other people. What I am supposed to do? I can’t magically feel the way you do and this whole thing is based on feelings rather than any actual tangible damage being done. In my mind if you make a mistake, apologize, and pay for it you should be good to go assuming they don’t have the same issue again in the future.
And sociopathy is not a simple lack of empathy it is a specific set of symptoms. Stop diagnosing people over the internet. It’s doubtful you have a degree in psychology and if you do you would know that’s unethical which is ironic considering the LTT discussion of ethics.
Relating to other people can be challenging if it is not something that comes to you naturally.
Let’s say this happened to you personally. Maybe you saved the last of your money to take a chance and make something you wanted to be proud of, maybe Linus was someone you looked up to, maybe you worked countless days to design and redesign to get it perfect. How would Linus’s initial response make you feel?
Let’s say you give him the benefit of the doubt on the initial review. You wait, and try to work with him to get things set right, and you don’t get a resolution. And then this happens. And you see his response where he still does not apologize or regret how he handled it.
How would you feel now? You put a lot of effort into all of this, to be shamed and belittled and have negative things said about your product and efforts for everyone to see.
If none of that would make you sad or upset, then you are able to shrug off a lot more than most people. Empathy is going to have to be something that you recognize you don’t have, but still have to be able to show sympathy, because you don’t want to invalidate the feelings of others. Try to understand their perspective if possible.
Because that’s literally their whole job. Their justification for testing something on hardware it wasn’t intended for is that they (LTT) didn’t want to spend the money on their end required to do their job properly.
It’s not about the product in question. It’s about their clearly inadequate processes and considerations, prioritizing profits over accuracy. Kinda terrible for a company trying to break into the whole accuracy market with their testing and data.
That video was not a review. So no, in this case that was not their job. Their job was to entertain. I agree they have inadequate processes and are prioritizing profits over accuracy for their reviews. But that is not relevant to the water block video.
Transistors at a point were a thousand dollars each. If you know anything about historic pricing for computer components you would know that anything new will be inordinately expensive because of the cost of custom components, new assembly processes, and custom tooling.
Well Linus argument doesn’t hold much water. If the product is so fundamentally flawed in his mind, then why even bother with it? If you as a reviewer can’t even give a proper opinion and spend an other 500 dollars on it, to give your audience a good review. Then don’t spend the extra 1000 dollars or more in editing that video.
His looking at views to show his sponsors, but forgets that the audience is the first thing that generates those views. Still a viewer of the main LTT channel, but Shortcurcet was fast out of my subscription list.
And as a non English native speaker, please don’t but the corrections on subtitle height, it a hassle.
If the product is so fundamentally flawed in his mind, then why even bother with it? If you as a reviewer can’t even give a proper opinion and spend an other 500 dollars on it, to give your audience a good review.
For fun. For entertainment. That is the point of the video. He wasn’t making that video “as a reviewer” he was making it as an entertainer.
Well then he shouldn’t have given a buyers recommendation. Some of Linus video’s don’t make any sense, like everyone can install a swimming pool at the back of their PC? Those balls to the walls videos are still the most fun to watch, as it’s original content, and maybe something they should stick to more often.
But don’t give a buyer recommendation about a small company, if the testing is done in a bad way.
Part of his rambling reply to the GN video was a comment that he was ‘looking out for the consumer’ and they didn’t want to recommend buying it. It was part of his justfication not to use the thing correctly.
The big deal is they didn’t admit to having accidentally auctioned it (the alternative is they knowingly did so despite requests to return it), and in the same breath talked about how they offered recompense (implying that it came before the video calling them out when it didn’t), and firing back on justified criticism as if they’re the victim
Oh, and all while claiming they own up to their mistakes even in the face of consequences.
They bulldozed a smaller company without a hint of empathy. He doesn’t consider that maybe the price could have come down or the performance (when properly used) would be worth it to a small segment of overclockers - even in the supposed mia culpa Linus takes several shots at the product he basically buried
But why does it even matter if they do it correctly or not? It’s still a water block that costs over $800. It’s a bad product at a fundamental level because not only is it a niche of a niche it’s wildly overpriced. No amount of testing is going to make it a good product. It was never going to sell well. I do not understand why people care so much about it.
The quanity-over-quality and QA errors are way more egregious than them shitting a product that deserves to get shit on. And as far as I can tell the auction thing is a single, isolated mistake of that nature. They do have a track record of making errors in their reviews. But what they don’t have is a history of auctioning off prototypes. It is a really weird thing to be so up-in-arms about. It was an accident and they are paying for it. What is the big deal?
Mate, it’s a prototype, their first product. If that design works well and will be mass produced the price goes down. With possibly a budget option released later that actually makes sense to buy.
A lot of companies started with the luxury version of a product and then later offered budget versions after showing everyone they could deliver.
Linus not only dissed them (after “testing” the product on the wrong GPU) but also sold off their only prototype. Otherwise they could have sent it to another reviewer to do a proper test.
You wanna talk about poorly run businesses? Why are they sending out their prototype if they only have one and it’s so important? At least make two of them.
They didn’t only have one Prototype but this was their best and most recent one, you also generally don’t copy prototypes until you are 99% to completion. Additionally they trusted LTT to send the Prototype back in a timely manner once they were done testing, as you would expect from any company with even a speck of professionalism.
I’d guess in the time the Prototype was away they either worked on other things (Packaging/Manufacturing/Marketing Solutions for the final release?) or went on a planned short Vacation.
Or more digital design for tweaks and simulations, waiting to validate against the prototype when it came back
Buddy are you trolling just for the sake of trolling or is that an genuine POV of yours.
If you are genuine then hear me out.
When a small company makes a prototype it is 1st to test, iterate and perfect. The 2nd job of a near perfect prototype is to promote the company to investors and hopefully garner money for the next step ie perfecting the process to make a finished product.
A small company notwithstanding even a big company like Nokia makes a single prototype to begin with and then replicate it to perfect the production process.
The second job is especially important for a startup who put all their money to make a prototype. The reason they gave it to LTT was for promotion. LTT dissed the company that the product is not viable but didn’t highlight that the concept of perfected and made cheaper can become a viable option for water cooling. On top of that they sold it without permission, under the guise of charity, which I doubt even happened.
I would love to see them pull something like this with any of the big companies. That is an sure shot way to corporate suicide.
If they can’t think of pulling something like this with a big company they should have thought twice before doing it with a small company.
When your defense of LMG boils down to “anyone would be stupid to trust them with something important”…
And yes, it was stupid to trust them and I hope no one else does going forward. But it doesn’t change that LMG were the ones to screw up and did so in so many ways it’s comical. Either they don’t know what they are doing, don’t care, or some combination of the two.
It’s not a water block that costs $800 though. It’s a prototype water block that they estimated the cost of producing to be around $800 given R&D, labor, materials, etc.
It was never meant to be a production ready product, and it should never have been treated as such.
The issue with the auction is due to the fact that they sent Billet numerous emails claiming to have prepared it to be shipped back, including one in which they said they would send tracking info shortly. They didn’t know it was being auctioned off until afterward. And Linus didn’t contact them about compensation until 3 hours after GNs video went live.
These are facts, backed by actual evidence which you can see for yourself in GNs latest HW news.
The product costs over $800. I’m not talking about the prototype. And sure “they” sent Billet multiple emails. That means one person sent the emails and then failed to follow up on them. The 100+ people at the company are not responsible for what happened, the 2-3 people that should have dealt with it are.
Okay? But he is compensating them. That is all I said.
That’s not how businesses work.
Those 2-3 people were acting as employees of the company, executing business for the company. The company is responsible for those actions.
You can’t just hand-wave it away as “our employees suck at their jobs”.
You hired them. You authorized them to do those jobs. You are responsible for the manner in which they were done (or not done)
Sure, but people are acting like Linus himself is somehow directly responsible for it, some people even acting like it’s intentionally malicious, when it’s more just lack of oversight.
Billet estimated the cost of the prototype to be $800. They never sent them a product.
Linus said “they agreed on compensation” and yet billet has stated they never responded to his offer, that he sent literal hours after GN posted the main video. Linus lied here. He can say he is compensating them all he wants, but there has not been any agreement made between the parties involved. They didn’t want payment, they wanted their fucking prototype back.
You already have incorrect information. That is the cost of the actual product not the cost of the prototype.
And he did not lie, he said agreed to compensate them which he did do. That doesn’t require an agreement between parties, he decided he would do it which is objectively true.
They can make another one with the money. It’s not like they took the CAD files. It’s a manufactured piece of copper. It can be rebuilt.
I haven’t exactly watched Linus’ videos about it but here’s how I understand the situation:
They deemed the product a “nobody should ever buy this for any reason” because of two things: 1: The cooler was for a 3090TI, by all accounts an “old” card 2: The cooler is priced at 800$
Of these 2 factors both have issues. For starters the “product” they tested was only a prototype, there is a 4090 Version coming that would be more appealing to the market. Second and most important: the cooler is apparently aimed at an incredibly niche market. A market so niche in fact 800$ for a cooler isn’t considered expensive. Just as an example: the product stack they themselves compare against is about as expensive as their own cooler block. They are not as egregiously overpriced as LTT claims. In fact given their selling point of “Only one cooler block” I’d argue they actually have a competitive product here. Can’t be sure though as I’m not well versed in the custom loop market.
Now under these circumstances giving such an absolute statement of “nobody should ever buy this” suddenly seems a tad bit unfair. No this cooler isn’t for the masses but by refusing to retest and not considering the market this cooler is aimed at LTT has done a disservice to the people potentially interested in this who will now be subconsciously steered away from it.
What Linus did is essentially review a Super Car. But instead of Gasoline he filled the tank with Diesel (not exactly the best analogy but the closest I can think of), then took it out for a drive. Claimed the Performance was shit for the price and that nobody ever should buy this for any reason at all. For a product like this it doesn’t matter that average Joe shouldn’t buy it, that is obvious from the get go but by not doing this properly LTT essentially robbed the intended customer base of an objective take on it.
Honestly, the prototype as it stands is a product no one should buy. But it is also a product only 1 person could buy (and that was a mistake…). It is a very expensive for what it is and anyone that has that kind of money to spend on a cooler is going to want the latest graphics card, not the last years model. So as a product for the 3090TI it really does not have any real market.
But it is only a prototype. And if they made one for the 4090TI instead it would have a niche market again. Development of these things takes time and they are only a very small company - no telling what they will bring to market in the future but I think it would take less time to adapt what they learnt from this prototype to one for the newer cards wont take as long. Maybe they might even need to target the next gen as their first actual market.
Either way, the conclusions that LTT made from their botched testing are useless. No performance improvement at all when used incorrectly does not tell us anything. If they had tested it correctly, and found a slight improvement in performance then it means they are on to something for the niche market they are going after. Which I assume is people with lots of money that want to squeeze the most performance as they can out of their system. Even if this version is not worth it for anyone that can afford it as you can get better performance with the newer card, what they actually release might be if it targets the current gen cards at the time of release.
But they still have to start somewhere with hardware they can get their hands on to actually do some R&D on their product ideas so a prototype being made for the 3090TI does make sense even if the product targeting that now does not.
Either way no good conclusion can be drawn from LTTs review but that also wont stop their review from hurting the company potential future customers. So is really a shitty thing for them to have done all round.
Because people with a case of the give a damns would give a damn.
But it has zero effect on the outcome? It is over priced regardless of whether or not it cools well.
A review isn’t a conclusion. It’s an overview of a product. A slapstick video where you throw together a system to review something and fail to even use the right graphics card when you HAVE IT ON HAND is just assinine in terms of being lazy and not doing your job right
But the video is not supposed to be a review. Literally the whole point is for it to be asinine entertainment. Their job for that video was to entertain not to do a review.
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What harm was done exactly? If anything this is one of the greatest things that could have possibly happened to their company. They’re getting more positive publicity than a good review would have given them from this controversy.
And I am autistic, so congrats for figuring that out I guess. I have a hard time relating to other people. What I am supposed to do? I can’t magically feel the way you do and this whole thing is based on feelings rather than any actual tangible damage being done. In my mind if you make a mistake, apologize, and pay for it you should be good to go assuming they don’t have the same issue again in the future.
And sociopathy is not a simple lack of empathy it is a specific set of symptoms. Stop diagnosing people over the internet. It’s doubtful you have a degree in psychology and if you do you would know that’s unethical which is ironic considering the LTT discussion of ethics.
Relating to other people can be challenging if it is not something that comes to you naturally.
Let’s say this happened to you personally. Maybe you saved the last of your money to take a chance and make something you wanted to be proud of, maybe Linus was someone you looked up to, maybe you worked countless days to design and redesign to get it perfect. How would Linus’s initial response make you feel?
Let’s say you give him the benefit of the doubt on the initial review. You wait, and try to work with him to get things set right, and you don’t get a resolution. And then this happens. And you see his response where he still does not apologize or regret how he handled it.
How would you feel now? You put a lot of effort into all of this, to be shamed and belittled and have negative things said about your product and efforts for everyone to see.
If none of that would make you sad or upset, then you are able to shrug off a lot more than most people. Empathy is going to have to be something that you recognize you don’t have, but still have to be able to show sympathy, because you don’t want to invalidate the feelings of others. Try to understand their perspective if possible.
Because that’s literally their whole job. Their justification for testing something on hardware it wasn’t intended for is that they (LTT) didn’t want to spend the money on their end required to do their job properly.
It’s not about the product in question. It’s about their clearly inadequate processes and considerations, prioritizing profits over accuracy. Kinda terrible for a company trying to break into the whole accuracy market with their testing and data.
That video was not a review. So no, in this case that was not their job. Their job was to entertain. I agree they have inadequate processes and are prioritizing profits over accuracy for their reviews. But that is not relevant to the water block video.
Nah, I am not buying that. They gave an opinion based on data they collected. That is a review, even if they don’t call it that.
What about the video was formal? It is two people dicking around with water cooling for 20 minutes it’s not a formal review.
Transistors at a point were a thousand dollars each. If you know anything about historic pricing for computer components you would know that anything new will be inordinately expensive because of the cost of custom components, new assembly processes, and custom tooling.
Well Linus argument doesn’t hold much water. If the product is so fundamentally flawed in his mind, then why even bother with it? If you as a reviewer can’t even give a proper opinion and spend an other 500 dollars on it, to give your audience a good review. Then don’t spend the extra 1000 dollars or more in editing that video.
His looking at views to show his sponsors, but forgets that the audience is the first thing that generates those views. Still a viewer of the main LTT channel, but Shortcurcet was fast out of my subscription list.
And as a non English native speaker, please don’t but the corrections on subtitle height, it a hassle.
For fun. For entertainment. That is the point of the video. He wasn’t making that video “as a reviewer” he was making it as an entertainer.
Well then he shouldn’t have given a buyers recommendation. Some of Linus video’s don’t make any sense, like everyone can install a swimming pool at the back of their PC? Those balls to the walls videos are still the most fun to watch, as it’s original content, and maybe something they should stick to more often.
But don’t give a buyer recommendation about a small company, if the testing is done in a bad way.
Link to me where in the video there was a buyer recommendation.
Part of his rambling reply to the GN video was a comment that he was ‘looking out for the consumer’ and they didn’t want to recommend buying it. It was part of his justfication not to use the thing correctly.
The big deal is they didn’t admit to having accidentally auctioned it (the alternative is they knowingly did so despite requests to return it), and in the same breath talked about how they offered recompense (implying that it came before the video calling them out when it didn’t), and firing back on justified criticism as if they’re the victim
Oh, and all while claiming they own up to their mistakes even in the face of consequences.
They bulldozed a smaller company without a hint of empathy. He doesn’t consider that maybe the price could have come down or the performance (when properly used) would be worth it to a small segment of overclockers - even in the supposed mia culpa Linus takes several shots at the product he basically buried