The sad thing is that a good amount of these guys aren’t actually working for the state. A lot of them are actually immigrants who left Russia for more opportunities, but are still rampant nationalist attempting to damage the countries that gave them a new home.

humanspiral@lemmy.ca

Yogthos@lemmy.ml

Are another two just off the top of my head.

I’m saying they don’t justify sanctions on the region, and that we’ve seen far worse.

Ahh, so the goal post has been moved… Your initial claim was that it was all propaganda, now it’s that the abuse doesn’t justify sanctions.

As I originally claimed, those who deny the abuse only do so utilizing logical fallacy. Glad we ironed that out.

2014 Chinese government reaction to be proportionate and reasonable, and that their investment in the last 5 years especially commendable.

Again, another goal post moved. Now you do not deny the abuse, you just think it’s validated.

You are not arguing in good faith, it’s always the same bullshit.

Well, judging by you prior post I shouldn’t be surprised. I’m guessing your not even from Canada considering you penchant for Russian nationalism. Your English has improved in the last four months though, so you got that going for you.

Btw, just a tip. Refrain from utilizing the same negative descriptors E.G demonic, pig, nazi. It’s a pretty dead giveaway that you’re utilizing a second language.

I’m not a nationalist, I don’t support America’s foreign policy, nor can you change my opinion about other nations foreign policy. Plus, I’m pretty sure we’re far enough down the thread where no one else is really looking, so you can drop the act if you wish too.

I’m mainly just curious, what region are you from? And do you actually make a living posting on here, or are you just doing this out of boredom?

wouldn’t say native Americans have done as well as Uyghur, or received as much investment and job creation.

First of all, I think you are ignoring the actual abuse of human rights that occurred. Secondly, you haven’t established that the Uyghur have received any actual benefit, you’ve just given statistics about the region, which they are no longer the majority ethnic group. I’ve already established that Han immigrants are the main benefactors of the government’s investment in the region. Lastly utilizing job creation is not a metric for determining human rights abuse. Technically more natives have “employment” as we typically define it today, because there weren’t jobs before. That doesn’t mean the abuse is valid.

I would say that giving them all US land ownership is not an option to undo injustice

And no one made that claim… I was using it as an example of how illogical your claim was.

Addressing your editorializing.

appreciate the distant history is imperfect, but there are so many worse “progroms” and minority dominance stories in history

Distant history? All of this is modern history… The vast majority nof the immigration to the region happened in the 00’s.

Just because there are worse examples of government sanctioned abuse towards minorities, does not mean we should defend or deny any kind of abuse. Should we not condemn the genocide in Gaza because at one point the Israeli experienced a greater genocide? What is the logic of this way of thinking?

this as yet another politicization of history for warmongering ammunition,

This is just history…attempting to rewrite or cover up historical events is the politicization of history.

the goal with zero consideration for peace and prosperity and contentment achieved by recent approach.

By this logic the genocide and assimilation of the native American population is entirely valid.

Your edit may be the most ethically devoid statement I’ve ever seen on this site. I think you really need to examine your moral compass.

You will call Chinese propaganda on this too, but plenty of youtube tourism

As I already said, the government has made massive efforts to assimilate the region and have pushed the majority native population away from major cities which are now being used for tourism.

YouTube tourist are not journalist, they are not members of international rights groups. They are still highly restrictive of travel to areas where the vast majority of where the native Uyghur populations were relocated to.

showing vibrant and prosperous region with luxury maintained Mosques.

Because that’s what is traditionally important to cultural and religious heritage … luxury?

If Israel rebuilds the Great Mosque of Gaza and turns it into a “luxury Mosque” as a tourist attraction…would that be okay?

Note also that their success is despite the lying based demonism of sanctions on the region.

Again…you have failed to establish that the accusations are lies. You have yet to make any kind of rebuttal that addresses any of the evidence I’ve posted.

I don’t get how you can have such nationalist views of a country you have never been to, nor know any of the modern history.

Are you claiming that all ethnic prejudice in East Asia is propaganda, or just this particular case? I really don’t understand how you can be so uncritical of the ethnic abuse in one country but not another.

If I was really just propagandizing for the west, wouldn’t I be making excuses or trying to downplay the genocide occurring in Gaza? Please, just stop engaging in partisanship and use some critical thinking skills.

population growth (2010-2020) 4th highest province: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_administrative_divisions_by_population#/media/File:Annual_population_growth_rate_by_Chinese_province.svg

This is measuring overall population change, not specific to the ethnic group we are talking about. The CCP has been subsidizing Han immigration into the area and displacing the native population.

gdp growth 2024, 2nd highest: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1179690/china-gross-domestic-product-gdp-growth-by-region-province/#%3A~%3Atext=GDP+growth+in+China+2024%2C+by+region&text=In+2024%2C+the+annual+real%2Cat+5.0+percent+in+2024.

Again, the government has been increasing spending in the region to entice Han citizens to move to the area. This does not say anything about the native population.

“Xinjiang is a vast region with an area of 1.66 million km2. Until the 1950s, Uyghurs were the majority ethnic group in the region, accounting for more than 90 percent of the total population.”

“Between the 1940s and the 1980s, attempts to incorporate the region into the modern Chinese national state brought about a 2,500 per cent increase in the Han population. Today, Han and Uyghurs each account for approximately 40 per cent of Xinjiang’s total population of roughly 25.5 million. Clearly, the basic trajectory over the past decades has been one of moving Han rapidly into the region. This is coupled in more recent years with a significant shrinking of the Uyghur population.”

“The Han population in the region increased at an average rate of 8.1 per cent yearly, from 5 per cent in 1947 to around 40 per cent in 2000. Officially, Uyghurs comprise about 45 percent of Xinjiang’s permanent population with Han representing approximately 42 percent, and Kazakh, Hui and other ethnicities making up the rest. However, these figures belie the very high number of long-term resident and temporary Han migrant workers as well as thousands of security personnel in Xinjiang. They also obscure data from the 2020 Chinese Statistical Yearbook, showing that between 2017 and 2019 the birth rate in Xinjiang dropped approximately 48.7 per cent, from 15.88 per thousand in 2017 to 8.14 per thousand in 2019. The average for all of China was 10.48 per thousand.”

“The capital of the province itself went from being a city in which there were hardly any Han Chinese before 1949 to one in which the Uyghurs have been almost completely displaced. In addition, across Xinjiang, urban redesign projects have demolished hundreds of thousands of homes and resettled millions of Uyghur residents on the pretext of ‘civilization’ (文明) and ‘beautification’ (美化).”

“Since the mid-1990s, the gradual exclusion of Uyghurs from state-based employment – and the rising number of private jobs – is statistically verifiable from a variety of sources. While Han Chinese were able to secure employment, Uyghurs were kept out of construction jobs, road-building projects and oil and gas pipelines. Uyghurs with graduate degrees were only employed at an estimated 15 per cent, and, according to a 2013 study, Uyghurs earned an average of 59 per cent of what their Han counterparts earned.”

Source from Minority Rights Group

Your claim of greater context seems to be lacking any kind of context at all. It’s pretty clear you have no real knowledge of the history of ethnic conflict in Asia at all, nor do you seem to be able to differentiate between the demographics of a region from the demographics of the ethnic minority in the region.

Like I said, I do admire a lot about China’s government and their ability to lift a huge population out of poverty. However, they are currently undergoing a conservative culture revisionism when it comes to things like minority and women’s rights. If you want to examine the problem yourself I’d suggest looking at the rapid decline of representation of both women and minorities in both local governments and the politburo compared to even 20 years ago.

Again, I don’t think you really know much about the region, or just how pivotal ethnic conflict is to the modern identity of China.

secret papers can’t be hard proof.

According to…? If you read the article the leaks were cross referenced and verified using things like time, date, other communications and even individual signatures.

Internal documents are some of the most sought after forms of evidence when examining crimes against humanity. One of the reasons the Holocaust is beyond doubt is because the Nazi had so many “secret” documents.

the risk of whataboutism, you have Israel engaged in genocidal mass murder on video.

Yes, and one of the reasons why is because foreign journalist have access to the region. One wonders why China have levied so many access restrictions to Xinjiang.

Politics of shit talking China is far more important than any objective principle of oppression.

Sounds like a projection to me. I would say you care more about defending any type of criticism more than oppression that is happening.

There is genuine context/exaggeration to all of these points.

Such as?

Demographics and income specifically show Xinxiang doing better than average in China.

Would you care to extrapolate on this, or should I just take your claims as fact?

even the countries that abstained are on their side.

What do you mean by on their side? Are you saying they don’t believe human rights violations happened, are you saying they are just politically aligned with China, or that worried about political backlash from China?

What do you consider hard proof?

As I said, most of the information used has been verified by independent reporters or human rights organizations.

If you required the same level of “hard proof” as you are dictating for China then most crimes against humanity never happened.

We have video and pictures of concentration camps, we have verified internal documents, we have demographics released to the public by the offending government, we have personal testimony, we have announcements from the government admitting to moderate the birth limits of an extreme minority in the country…

What else could you possibly want?

The majority of UN countries are on their side, Muslim majority countries included.

And claiming “U.N. body rejects debate on China’s treatment of Uyghur Muslims in blow to West” means a majority of countries on their side is just dishonest. China has a massive economy and is able to put political pressure on plenty of nations in the UN.

This would be like saying America has never pressured another nation into voting for something in the UN.

It is absolutely shameful propaganda to the most humanist response to terrorism in history: Education and job creation. Very significant prosperity in region.

America said the same thing when they forced assimilation on the native population after stealing their land.

The political designation of genocide is based on some unwed mothers with 4+ children going to UK to say they were now sterile, FFS.

Or just demographics?

Again, your only defense to actual evidence is just logical fallacy. You aren’t making any argument in good faith.

The anti-China hateful have no metrics to stop hating China. Only propaganda amplification.

I actually admire a lot about the Chinese government, they’ve done wonders in recent decades to undue nearly a hundred years of foreign interference and imperialism. That doesn’t mean I’m not going to be critical of the things I don’t like about the government.

The simple fact is that they have a fairly well documented history of oppressing non-Han minorities in the country.

It is politicization to be overly critical of China over what is a reasonable solution to peace and prosperity in the region

So… Forcing an entire ethnic group into concentration camps, forced migration, forced assimilation, and depopulation is reasonable? For what, because there were a couple attacks from some extremists?

while the west contributes to 1000x worse treatment of Palestinians.

I wasn’t aware it was a competition? Human rights violations should be criticized no matter who’s doing it.

That politicization gap shows that there is zero concern for actual genocide or persecution and instead a desire for (or avoidance for Israel for) political criticism independent of prosperity/facts.

Again… I’m not the American government. I am very critical of the US governments involvement with many genocides throughout history. I am also very critical of any government who participates in similar human rights violations, because I’m not a massive hypocrite.

There is plenty of evidence widely available from organizations like human rights watch and amnesty international. Claims that deny any evidence exist of the persecution of China’s Muslim population rely on logical fallacies to attempt to obscure the validity of the body of evidence. Namely ad hominem attacks against the individual who first gathered the evidence to begin with.

While the researcher obviously has biased opinions about the CCP, that doesn’t affect the validity of the evidence gathered, most of which comes directly from publicly available information released by the CCP itself, or from leaked internal communication from party members that have been widely verified by reputable journalists and organizations specializing in human rights violations.

While I personally wouldn’t claim that there is a genocide as we traditionally understand it has occurred, it’s hard to deny that the Uyghur people aren’t being systemically oppressed or that significant human rights violations haven’t occurred.

Simply looking at publicly available census data releases by the CCP we can tell that Uyghur people are being driven from culturally important sites that are being replaced by ethnically Han Chinese, and that Uyghur populations have been shrinking at a worryingly abnormal rate.

If we look at recent history of ethnic conflict within China in tibet, Manchuria, and inner Mongolia, I fail to see why it’s logical to assume that the accusations of crimes against humanity is pure propaganda.

Han chauvinism is well documented, and even Mao Zedong spoke about how it would negatively affect the future of the party. Ethnic conflict/cleansing has been a constant in the region and is part of the foundational history of modern China.

think he’s accelerating the decline of the US empire. And I think a new multipolar world with China taking on a leading role will emerge shortly. Within a few years at latest.

Thinking of geopolitics as a polarity is a way to make a complex subject more digestible, however when it’s examined against actual history its highly reductive.

Even when the world was less complicated and communist nations weren’t a hodgepodge of mixed markets, nothing was delineated so cleanly into something as simple as multipolarism.

Democratic capitalist nations still overthrew emerging capitalist democracies, communist nations still went to war with other communist nations. I think it’s a bit optimistic to believe that political and economic instability inexplicably births unity.

Tbh, I’ve been pondering just how regulated organized market manipulation is nowadays. With the market going through “corrections” because of tariffs and the FCC being completely defanged, a large group of organized retail investors have the opportunity to get up to some pretty funny business.

Just because we’ve done some pretty cool things, it doesn’t dismiss the really bad things we’ve done. That’s just as a reductive argument as we’ve done some bad things so that dismisses the good things…

By the same definition that we label other animals, humans are an invasive species.

Have you never heard of intersex before? It’s not even that rare of a condition, roughly 1 out of a 1000 children born have abnormal primary sex organs that make determining sex medically difficult.

Lol, way to contribute to the discussion.

Btw I am just a dude, not trans or anything. I’m just not a whiny fuck about addressing people how they wish to be addressed. It’s just a respectful and polite thing to do, and requires little to no effort.

Okay, gotta explain empathy I guess. Has any kind of descriptor ever been used to hurt your feelings? A slur, name calling, or even an unflattering description of your looks or personality?

Well when a nonbinary person is misgendered they feel bad. What you are telling people to do is just accept that they will feel bad when being discussed in their workplace.

It’s not about how the person presents themselves, it’s about how they prefer to be recognized.