• yarn@sopuli.xyz
    18111·
    2 years ago

    I haven’t been really keeping up with this RHEL drama, so I’m probably going to regret making this comment. But about this bug merge request in particular, you have to remember that RHEL’s main target audience is paying enterprise customers. It’s the “E” right there in RHEL. So stability is a high priority for their developers, since if they accidentally introduce a bug to their code, then they’ll have a lot of unhappy paying customers.

    The next comment that was cropped out of that screenshot basically explains exactly that. While the Red Hat developers probably appreciate the bug fix, the reality is that the bug was listed as non-critical, and the Red Hat teams didn’t have the capacity to adequately regression test and QA the merge request. But the patch was successfully merged into Fedora, so it will eventually end up in RHEL through that path, which is exactly what the Fedora path is for.

    The blowup about this particulat bug doesn’t seem justified to me. Red Hat obviously can’t fix and regression test every single bug that’s listed in their bug tracker. So why arbitrarily focus on this one medium priority bug? if it were listed as a critical bug, then yes, the blowup would be justified.

    • LeFantome@programming.dev
      271·
      2 years ago

      Except that they are not expecting to merge this into RHEL. They are sending it to CentOS Stream.

      • yarn@sopuli.xyz
        1512·
        2 years ago

        CentOS Stream is midstream of RHEL and Fedora. That sounds like it’s like a cert type of environment for RHEL. The same logic would apply there. You don’t want to be introducing a bunch of new changes to code once it’s in the cert environment unless they’re critical.

    • angrymouse@lemmy.world
      283·
      2 years ago

      But it is also another stab in the community, they took centos that was a community project for them, then transformed this project that was downstream to upstream, then called all other downstream distros a negative net worth cause they don’t engage in the process of RHEL, then blocked the acess to this distros to the downstream, then reject the work of this ppl they called net negative without a decent process.

      What actually red hat wants?

      Centos now is only a beta branch? Ppl who wants derive from centos should be fixing everything downstream and duplicate work cause centos now is just an internal beta from red hat? If yes, why they took the project from the community? I’m not a rpm based distros user but I totally understand why ppl are pissed.

      • yarn@sopuli.xyz
        1513·
        2 years ago

        I’m making no comment on CentOS being absorbed and repurposed by Red Hat. I’m just saying it makes sense why Red Hat would rather have this fix in Fedora than CentOS Stream.

        • angrymouse@lemmy.world
          10·
          2 years ago

          I’m making no comments about you making or no comments on centOS being repurposed. I’m just saying that this blown-up is probably caused by a mixture of miscommunication between RHEL and a community that feels like being tossed aside, I just said that because you said that you felt unjustified.

          • yarn@sopuli.xyz
            47·
            2 years ago

            I’m getting downvoted on my comment about not making a comment on CentOS, so now I feel obligated to reply to this.

            I don’t know, dude. I don’t really care about the miscommunication. I was just focusing solely on the merits of the merge request’s code changes.

            For the miscommunication, it seems like a two way street to me. That was GitLab, so the Red Hat dev was probably operating under the assumption that people there already understood everything about their testing process. But obviously that’s not the case, so Red Hat should create better boilerplate responses for these scenarios. But on the other side of the coin, whoever took this screenshot and posted it to reddit or wherever did so prematurely, imo. They should’ve asked around a bit to make sure it was a legitimate thing to blow up about before they sent a lynch mob to the merge request.

            • angrymouse@lemmy.world
              2·
              2 years ago

              I’m getting downvoted on my comment about not making a comment on CentOS

              I don’t think so, you are probably getting downvoted because you said exactly this:

              The blowup about this particulat bug doesn’t seem justified to me.

              And seems somehow offended that I replied to this statement trying to explain (not necessarily justify)

              • yarn@sopuli.xyz
                21·
                2 years ago

                I’m getting downvoted because I’m not conceding that the miscommunication was a legitimate excuse for that blowup. And I’m going to continue to not concede that. I found this whole situation to be embarrassing, and I think instead of getting mad at the miscommunication, you should all be getting mad at the moron who took that screenshot and whipped up the mob frenzy to swarm that merge request, because ultimately Red Hat was 100% justified in not accepting that merge request, and it made you all look like morons.

                It’s fine to get mad on social media, but if you’re contributing to GitLab or someplace else, then you need to slow your roll. There’s always a process involved when contributing to a project, and you have to learn that process in order to contribute effectively. You can’t blow up and whip up a social media frenzy at the slightest inconvenience.

                Edit: Sorry, @angrymouse@lemmy.world. I should also add that I’m not mad at you personally or anything, or calling you a moron. I’m more talking about the collective response to this situation. And I’m pretty bad at words, so I feel like I accidentally made it too angry.

            • yarn@sopuli.xyz
              33·
              2 years ago

              I’m still getting downvoted, so I’m just going to put this here and be done with this:

              RTFM about DevOps

      • digdilem@feddit.uk
        01·
        2 years ago

        What actually red hat wants?

        All the control and all of the money.

        Besides that, I suspect they have no clear vision. And if they do, they are absolutely terrible at communicating that.

    • FlexibleToast@lemmy.world
      151·
      2 years ago

      Fedora is where this sort of thing is supposed to go. That’s been Red Hat philosophy since forever. Patch as high upstream as you can. Sounds like this is a non issue.

    • Marxine@lemmy.ml
      11·
      2 years ago

      That could have been better communicated though. What you said is reasonable, what Michal said isn’t as much.

    • digdilem@feddit.uk
      01·
      2 years ago

      Agree on point of detail, but the “drama” is the reason for the fuss. Redhat’s communication, especially to the community that helped build and support it, has always been patchy, but over the past few years it’s been apalling. As others have pointed out, they’ve insulted a lot of us, specifically for not contributing upstream - so it’s not unexpected for them to be called on it when someone does.

      I think the EL sphere as a whole (including RHEL and all up and downstreams) is getting drastically weakened directly because of Redhat’s poor decision making, and that’s a shame for all of us.

  • PhysicsDad@lemmy.world
    91·
    2 years ago

    Wasn’t Red Hat just complaining that Alma and Rocky didn’t add value because they weren’t submitting fixes upstream?

    • gomp@lemmy.ml
      211·
      2 years ago

      Its funny how podcasters and commenters seem to have taken Redhat’s spin about “contributing value to the community” seriously, while to the rest of us the whole thing was obviously only about money (same as all the follow-ups from other parties… I would say “including Alma” but that would probably deserve its separate debate).

    • pazukaza@lemmy.ml
      313·
      2 years ago

      — “we don’t like people ripping off our work without any added value”

      — “Here, let me push this to your staging environment, totally breaking your quality process”

      — “No”

      — “Well, what the hell do you want broo?”

      I don’t think they have ever hidden the fact this is about money. I don’t like the fact this is about money, but the fact that others were cloning and selling their efforts for a cheaper price is awful.

        • pazukaza@lemmy.ml
          23·
          2 years ago

          1. they are not breaking any law. This is totally allowed. You can use FOSS to create a commercial product.

          2. they are major contributors to the Linux space. And they’ll keep contributing.

          3. It’s their effort, they created a business around it, and it cycles back to push Linux forward.

          4. this isn’t even going to affect average users. This is going to take money from companies that probably have the money to pay. For other companies, there are other distributions available.

            • pazukaza@lemmy.ml
              13·
              2 years ago

              Well, the re-builders would be breaking the law now that the source code isn’t available for non-paying customers. They weren’t breaking the law before.

              So, do you expect every company to release the source code of their products just because they used a FOSS web framework or a FOSS programming language like Python? Or by the same logic, for companies to release the source code of their products if their developers use Linux in their development machines? Or if they use Linux to deploy their applications in the cloud? That’s such an unreasonable position.

                • pazukaza@lemmy.ml
                  11·
                  2 years ago

                  OK, so is Redhat breaking any license? Do you really think a company like Redhat would open itself to thousands of lawsuits like that. The CEO already explained that this is totally legal and covered by GPL. They are in fact distributing the source to the people receiving the product. This is exactly what GPL says. They are not forced to open the source code to people who aren’t getting the distributed software.

                  What is your complaint then? They are not breaking any law and they are following the GPL license.

                  I was using the webframework/language as examples because you said this wasn’t a matter of law but a matter of principle. So why does the principle apply to Redhat but not the million other products that totally depend on FOSS on their core?

                  So many projects do in fact distribute the FOSS, but they use more permissive licenses like MIT, Apache or LGPL. BUT you’re saying the law is not relevant, what matters is the principle. So why don’t everyone release their code if they depend on FOSS on their core products? Because they aren’t breaking the Apache or MIT licenses? Well, that’s great! Redhar isn’t breaking the GPL license either. Why must Redhat follow whatever subjective principles you have?

                  — “hey there’s this company creating a commercial product around FOSS. They aren’t breaking any license.”

                  — “Nice, as long as the licenses aren’t compromised”

                  — “It’s Redhat”

                  — “Those mofos! How dare they!”

  • cognitive@lemmy.ml
    68·
    2 years ago

    Alma should use this as advantage for them. Now market it as “Alma Linux is more secure than RHEL”.

  • OsrsNeedsF2P@lemmy.ml
    621·
    2 years ago

    As someone interviewing for Canonical’s Security team (they make you do like 10 interviews, I’m like 5 deep over 3 weeks), I cannot imagine anyone security-minded writing that comment. It either:

    • Comes from higher up
    • Michal doesn’t think security is important
    • d-RLY?@lemmy.ml
      7·
      2 years ago

      Truth! I wasn’t shocked that all the social media and entertainment companies all decided to treat the Covid years as if that growth was organic/normal (all retail stores started doing this much faster). As if people were just going to keep having the same amount of time to spend on them. Or in the case of sites like Reddit, they think that they are the creators of content instead of the location to get it. Companies like Red Hat are more jarring and seem like they would’ve been more realistic.

      The next two paragraphs are just a rant about companies and the government not really caring for stability long-run. Feel free to ignore.

      Of course people were going to start unsubbing now that they need to focus on actual things needed for just living. Covid has shown that all these greedy folks running (or holding shares) companies in all sectors refuse to just be focused on stability. They act like all the crazy large profits were all because of their “genius innovative ideas and leadership.” Of course that was going to happen to all the publicly traded companies, due to their literal legal obligation to always make numbers go up. But shit is beyond a bad way to handle the real material conditions of life. It also doesn’t help that the US did a worse job at doing things like monthly stimulus money compared to other places.

      A capitalist economy requires that people keep buying both needed and wanted things in order to keep things moving around. But instead of putting money into the hands of people, which would then likely buy more things or even have finally something to save for when things normalized (which would be helpful for making the falloff less dramatic). We barely got two total $2000 payments. Fuck, even just making sure folks could have money to finally get out of various debits would mean people could more easily justify keeping things like Netflix.

  • Secret300@lemmy.world
    431·
    2 years ago

    Alright, at first I was like okay red hat wants to make money to keep IBM happy. Now I just realize it’s not read hat anymore. Fuck that I’m moving to suse

      • Tak@lemmy.ml
        322·
        2 years ago

        Nobody has a problem with Red Hat keeping the lights on and people paid. IBM just wants to increase profit margins because capitalism is a flawed system about abusing whatever you can for personal gain.

    • Lilium@lemmy.ml
      10·
      2 years ago

      Red Hat literally became the first ever billionaire FOSS company (iirc), their pre-selling out business model was working perfectly fine.

  • andruid@lemmy.ml
    1·
    2 years ago

    I mean obviously for the community this is bad, but I 100% get that doing anything for free is best effort. They don’t even need to have this policy 100% of the time to make large orgs using FOSS with no SLA for vulnerability patching sweat. Which frankly they should.

    For real, I’m gonna use this as a tactic to say “we shouldn’t rely on software without warranty and support, FOSS or proprietary.”. Just to get money flowing to devs, because for it’s for real reckless to contribute nothing to keeping pieces of your critical infra secure